11 June, 1996
Dear Georgina,
Thank you for your letter. As I said on the phone I have a lot of information about your family - in fact if there is one subject that I can say without doubt I am the world expert on, it is the Grant family in Ireland! I have had it as a hobby for about thirty years now, and have hoovered up every bit of information that I could find. The net result is a weighty (unpublished) book which includes the large chart. I attach various pages that are relevant - I think I would just confuse you if you had the lot.
In a nutshell the Grants arrived in Ireland with the Norman conquest in 1190. They lived in southern Kilkenny, near Waterford City until they lost their land in the Cromwellian confiscations in 1665. Most of the Grants in Ireland still live in and around Waterford today. The ones from whom we both are descended moved to Tipperary (p43,44,45,46). There were two groups, one near Moyne the other near Moyaliff (my write-up shows where they are, two small areas near Thurles in Tipperary)
You and I came from the Moyaliff lot (p47,48) rather than Moyne (p49,50) A pity 'cos there is the lovely tale of a highwayman from there being transported to Australia that I have followed through).
An American lady, Mrs Boyland, spent some time in the area last summer, but I am still waiting her full write up. She spoke to a Dermot Grant in the area of Drumbane, and also got a local historian to get her an introduction to the old family house at Lisheen (she sent me a postcard, but the full report was to follow). Thurles library has a good local history section.
Between 1790 and 1800 the family in this area split because of the state of unrest in the countryside - they call it "ethnic cleansing" now. Either they changed their erligion to Catholic and stayed in that area or stayed Protestant and moved to Shinrone, which was Protestant at that time.(p57, 58)
The brief history of the family at Shinrone is p59,60. You will find a number of Grants still there. Try the local phone book or the Church of Ireland minister or even the local shops to get to find them. I see from by notes that there was a Mrs Whitford of Aughancon who had a lot of information many years ago.
Your family follows p66, 67, 68, 69. And mine from 68,69, 83,84.
I have tried to make this as simple as possible, it can become quite complex. You have an ideal opportunity if you are in Shinrone for a few days to really get to grips with the area and what happened. I have found that the key is usually people rather than books.
I will of course be interested in whatever you can find out, and in any photographs that you take.
Yours Sincerely
David Grant
From her letters
Married Murray McGillivray (Professor Early Middle English Calgary Univ, Canada)
Children Patrick (9), Madelaine (7) in Jan 1996
Great Grandfather Stephen Grant (1846? - 1923), m.Julia Christian
Stephen's eldest son William accidently shot by a neighbours child at the age of 11
Grandfather John R A Grant (m. Georgina Sutton) youngest of 11 children
Father John Sutton Grant (1916 - 1990) oldest of four children ,m. Claire Jardine. He was buried in Grant plot Woolands Cemetary, London, Ont.
Great grandfathers brother James, is also buried there, his headstone records him being from Kings Co, born 25 Dec 1841, d 3 Aug 1903. His wife Maria Baskerville d.8 Oct 1923
The same heastone as James records Lizzie Grant b.Nov 1860, Kings Co., d.Nov 1888
at 51 Sutton Downs
Dublin 13
00353 832 6010
until July 1996
11 June, 1996
Dear Georgina,
Thank you very much for the various bits and pieces. You certainly know more about your family now than you did six months ago!
I guess that you have got all the stuff from Marion Gilmour about the family of Stephen's (m.Julia Christian) brother James who also went to London, Ontario. That is a complete record of James' descendants in Canada. Let me know if you need it, but I think you are better getting it from the horses mouth, and as it was Marion Gilmour who put you in touch with me, I guess that you have it by now.
The bits that you do not yet have from North America are information on two of Stephen's other brothers descendants - William (who went to Indian Head, NWT) and John (who went to New York). I have tried to trace any descendants in NWT without success. I doubt that any of John's relations are traceable unless someone in your family knows about them.
You have found Towra and seen the surrounding area where Stephen, his brothers and his father William (b1808) were born. I have now found out a bit more about the generation before this. William's (b1808) father, you will see from my charts was John (b1770). I have finally got the information from an American lady (whose common link is even further back) who has visited the Grant family home in the part of central Tipperary that the Grants lived in from around 1734 till around 1863 (when I think they were evicted as a result of the fathers death). The place is called Lisheen House and is near Moyaliffe, a few miles west of Thurles. The present house is modern (1900!) and is occupied by the Quinns, whom, I am assured, are very hospitable). If you are down in Shinrone before you go you may like to find it too - it is a truly remarkable coincidence that you ended up staying in Shinrone - as a mathematician I am intrigued by the odds against it!
The family who remained in Lisheen House after the movements of their siblings to Shinrone undoubtedly changes their religion from Protestant to Catholic. I have unearthed a family story about the father going one way to the Protestant church and the mother and children & children another to the Catholic church which confirmed this. The change in religion by those remaining at Lisheen House was between 1810 and 1830.
Your notes refer to the Talbot party, and I attach some notes I made on a Robert Grant who went out with this party. It is gathered from Ron Cox (74 Brunswick Drive, Beaconsfield, QC, H9W 5H2, tel 514 695 4601) and other sources. Ron is a hardened genealogist, and would love to hear from you - just say you know me! I have not been able to establish exactly where Robert Grant fits into the family tree, and still have some work to do on the ground with the data. The book on Irish Migrants to the Canadas by Bruce Elliott that I referred you to is primarily on the Talbot group, and is how I originally found Ron Cox. You may get further with Bruce Elliott than I did (as you are academics!), but he seems to be the sort of chap that only replies when he wants something!
Let me know if you find out any more, or if you need anything else from me. We are still in limbo here, not being sure if we are leaving on 11th July or not, anyway do ring from Oxford, and you can come & see us (if you don't have a car I'll come & pick you up) - I am sure your children would love to see I real live ancestor living in an ancestral pile.
Regards,
Canada
602 - 15th Street N W
Calgary
Alberta
Canada T2N 2A9
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